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CAIR Advocates, Opponents Rally at Hillsborough County School District

The rally was organized by Hillsborough County conservative groups to protest the school board's policy permitting groups such as CAIR to speak at public schools.

 

A rally intended to protest the Hillsborough County School Board’s policy to allow organizations such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations to speak at public schools drew demonstrators on both sides of the controversy to the steps of the Hillsborough County School District headquarters in Tampa on Sept. 11.

The rally was part of a daylong 9/11 remembrance organized by conservative groups including the Community Issues Council, the Education Coalition, the Tampa 912, the Tampa Tea Party and the Pinellas Patriots. The group kicked off the remembrance with a prayer vigil at Joe Chillura Park in downtown Tampa and then headed over to the school district for the CAIR protest.

There, they were met by a crowd of CAIR members and supporters brandishing signs accusing the conservative groups of racism, restricting free speech and establishing an environment of hate.

“I think it’s ridiculous what they’re trying to do,” said Sulphur Springs resident Brittany Hallmark. “Everybody has a right to speak. They’re sending a bigoted message.”

The controversy stems from a presentation that Hassan Shibly, executive director of the Tampa CAIR chapter, made to a world history class at Steinbrenner High School last year. Upon learning about the presentation, Brandon resident and school board candidate Terry Kemple appealed to the Hillsborough County School Board in April to adopt more stringent policies on who it allows to speak to students, asserting that CAIR is linked to terrorism.

CAIR denies any link to terrorism. Its website says it is an organization created to challenge "stereotypes of Islam and Muslims" and provide "an Islamic perspective on issues of importance to the American public.”

The school board upheld its policy on speakers in the schools.

"It’s important for our students to be exposed to diverse viewpoints," said school board chairwoman Candy Olson, noting that the board didn't take the issue lightly.

"The board had a long workshop and many of us did our own research," said Olson. "After that workshop, we distributed guidelines for teachers concerning speakers, including a guide on religious speakers."

She said the guidelines made it clear that the teacher must follow these guidelines when recruiting a speaker and that the teacher must be in the classroom at all times.

"Speakers have a great value in engaging students. I've had students tell me the Holocaust was nothing but names and dates until a survivor spoke to them and showed them his tattoo," said Olson. "I’m concerned about teachers being reluctant to have speakers in to enrich students. And I don’t believe a student can be indoctrinated in an hour or two hours."

On Tuesday, Kemple said he wasn’t surprised by the turnout of CAIR supporters at the protest rally.

“I expected them to make a showing today,” he said. However, he said the Community Issues Council and other groups are not going to back down on the issue.

“We’ve been at this for eight months now,” he said. “This issue is not going away. The school board can’t keep burying its head in the sand.”

But residents like Michael Freincle of Brandon fear a policy banning CAIR from speaking in schools will lead to a prohibition of other religious and cultural groups.

“I’m Jewish and I’m American,” said Freincle. “And, as an American, who benefits from religious pluralism, I’m here to stand with my Muslim brothers and sisters. They’re not trying to convert students. I think sharing cultures and other topics of knowledge can benefit students.”

University of South Florida student Estefania Galvis agreed. A member of Students for a Democratic Society and Tampa Against the War on Terror, she said she and fellow students attending the rally felt compelled to stand up for the Muslim community.

“9/11 should be a day of remembrance,” she said. “Not a day to spread hate. We want to spread a message of peace.”

Related Topics: CAIR, Community Issues Council, and Hillsborough County School Board

Jeff Lukens

8:58 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

This matter will not just blow over as the school board wishes it would. CAIR is linked to Hamas, a terrorist group, and they refuse to not denounce Hamas. They have no business in our schools. We can find other groups to expose students to Islam, but one that condones the murder on innocent people should not be among them. When schools go to great lengths to screen people to who speak to students with the Serve Program and others, shouldn't we apply the same standard to CAIR? Terry Kemple (and Stacey White) are on the right track on this issue. It is not going away.

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George Gould

9:32 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

"They have no business in our schools?" Sounds like the Christianist Taliban doesn't like the Islamist Taliban cutting in on its action in poisoning the minds of the young. So what else is new?

Daryl Dixon

10:01 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Could you imagine the international outcry if the Knights of Columbus stormed walls of the Egyptian Embassy, tore down their flag, burned it and raised the flag of the Catholic Church!....yet we sit and remain silent as the Muslim Brotherhood does just that...maybe we need to apologize more...yeah that will work!

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Denise

12:25 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Well said, Daryl. But don't confuse them with the facts. They'll just ignore them anyway.

JS

10:15 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Tell all that to the US Ambassador to Libya. Oh wait, you can't, he is dead.

Nero fiddles while Rome burns..........

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Greg Griffin

10:36 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Formerly, we had a South Tampa news source, THE PATCH. We now have yet another biased propaganda paper. This article's perspective is shameful.
It's offensive that the traditional Judeo-Christian perspective is considered "spreading hate". This misused phrase is solely designed to quiet the voice of traditional believers. The race card is likewise tossed around to deminish legitimate perspectives. Be clear, Muslim beliefs are unyielding as those in Christian and Jewish faiths are. The vast majority of Muslim people are peace loving. Selling the tolerance of Islam with intollerance of Judao Christian faiths, the nation's founding principles, is the real hate. It's false. It's offensive.
Our children must be educated in the truths of their world. The value of a faith based belief system is advocated by more than 90% of America. The barbaric behaviors of history, including the Crusades and Holocaust cannot be omitted. Likewise, the barbaric behaviors of the present cannot be glossed over. The esistance of extremists in the Islamic faith cannot be minimized in any truthful educational conversation. The world is a dangerous place. Our children must know what challenges they face. Our school board should, in my opinion, focus on all aspects of the truth. They must do their own homework prior to accepting any individual or group to influence our youth. This controversy will otherwise escalate.

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George Gould

10:49 am on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

The point of this is that both sides would be wise to heed the words of Jesus: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:3 (KJV).

What we have is a childish pissing contest with hateful consequences by two groups who want to control everyone and everything that doesn't fit in their worldviews.

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Denise

12:28 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

George Gould, if "worldview" includes killing innocent people that don't bend their knee to your "religion", then YES, we'll keep protesting until our young people won't be exposed to that "philosophy" as just another "worldview".

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George Gould

12:47 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Denise, you can put whatever spin on what I said that your little heart desires. I fought for your right to do so. I hate to tell you this but your young people will be exposed to all kinds of ideas of which you will disapprove regardless of your masturbatory protesting. I'll stick with the words of Jesus. It seems to me that his wisdom trumps your bluster.

JS

3:30 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Denise, what George is saying is that we made a big mistake in this country before WWII. We should've allowed every Nazi organization full access to our schools.

Hitler had his opinions and Goebbels had every right to expose those views to our children. After all, soldiers fought for their rights in WWI.

Left wingers as well as radical Muslims in this country hide behind this debate as Christian or Jew versus Muslim. They spit out religion in your face to make you appear to be a bigoted.

This is not a religious war. These are enemies of the state and they do not care if they lop off George's shiny bald head, your head, a Jew's head, a Christian, an atheist, Buddhist or even a fellow Arab who is not Muslim. Convert or die.

This is a battle for turf disguised as a crusade. What better way to conquer a politically correct democracy than stand behind your rights to religion while attacking the structure?

Don't kid yourself. President Obama is well aware of this now. It is why we still have a large mercenary force in Iraq and have remained in Afghanistan. G4S is the US mercenary company in Iraq. It is the second largest employer in the world after Wal Mart, 625,000 strong. It is simply a politically correct army for politicians to hide behind.

America, you are the enemy on all levels, not a religious rival. The Ambassador to Libya is a fine example.

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George Gould

4:22 pm on Wednesday, September 12, 2012

JW, it may surprise you but I agree with much of what you wrote. At times you slip into paranoid fantasy, but I always like to find points of agreement where I can.

You are right. This is not a religious war. It is a middle school-level pissing contest between homegrown Christianist Taliban such as yourself and Islamist Taliban such as CAIR (and Hamas and Hezbollah, if you will). "We're the good guys and there the bad guys!: "No you're not. We're the good guys and you are the bad guys."

I have no doubt the Islamists would want to chop off my "shiny, bald head." But then again I suspect so would you if you thought you could get away with it but you don't have the balls to try it.

I notice you didn't add your head to the litany of heads they'd like to cut off.. Why is that?

I have no problem with anyone spreading their ideas. As Thomas Jefferson said, referring to the University of Virginia in a letter to William Roscoe in 1820, "...for here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."

If you don't like someone's ideas, seek not to silence them. Combat them with better ideas, unless you have none.

TampaResident

2:04 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

I don't want a group who's beliefs treat women like second hand citizens speaking to my children about anything. America has fallen in education compared the the rest of the world and now I know why.

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Shawn Hicks

8:55 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

Well, at the very least, our educational system seems to have failed to teach how women in this country have been historically treated. In my lifetime, women could be legally raped by their husbands, they are still excluded from some "male only" jobs due to gender and not ability, their ability to get credit/loans without a husband was limited, their ability to make choices about their own health is debated by old white guys in Congress and by picketers and bloggers, their ability to initiate divorce without their husband's permission was limited, and they generally get paid less for the same jobs as men. All within my own lifetime. Did you know that women weren't even allowed to vote until 1920, less than 100 years ago.

I think women in the islamic world are worse off today, but our own women have been second class citizens until very recently in our history and are still not fully equal to men in our society.

Rollo Tomasi

5:35 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

Yes have tolerance for a group of people who storm embassies and kill 4 people over an anti Muslim film on YOUTUBE!!! that sounds like the religion of peace. For shame on all of you who are against acts like these from an obvious peace loving and tolerant of others religion. Liberal trash preach tolerance for a group of animals who have shown time and time again they are sub human and have zero tolerance to the point of killing you.

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UNST3RBLICH

2:28 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012

For shame, you still not using proper grammar or being able to form proper sentences. It really detracts from whatever point you're attempting to make.

JS

8:47 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

George, how do you know if my head is on the list or not? I could be a Jew, an Arab non Muslim, a Christian ........ or another bald guy with a big shiny head.

I would love to see you combat radical Islam with better ideas as they saw through that sinuous neck of yours.

I am sure our Ambassador would've loved to have seen you, as well as Nick Berg and countless others. Throw in the 25 million Nazi murder victims in that group too.

"It also gives us a very special, secret pleasure to see how unaware the people around us are of what is really happening to them." Adolf Hitler

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George Gould

11:40 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

JW, I have no idea if your head is on the list. I merely noted that you did not specifically list it as you did with my head and Denise's head and I wondered why that was. If you included it as part of a group, please accept my apology. Based on your writings here and in relation to other articles, I made the reasonable presumption that you didn't include it specifically because on you it is a useless appendage, somewhat like an appendix, if you will.

At any rate, it is difficult to observe anything about you, other than the ignorance and bigotry evident in your writings, because you feel the need to hide behind your well-deserved anonymity.

JS

9:13 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

According to the Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org, citing AFP news sources, U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens, who was killed by gunmen that stormed the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday, was reportedly RAPED before being murdered.

Enjoy combating that with your spiffy quotes and better ideas.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/#.UFFsmEHLVQ0.twitter

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George Gould

11:47 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

And pray tell, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? The issue in this article was the Hillsborough County School Board's policy on speakers. I can state with a very comfortable degree of certainty that no one here in Tampa was responsible for the murder and rape, if in fact this story is true, of our Ambassador. It most certainly will be taken into account when we bring the perpetrators to justice but is irrelevant to this article.

Jamie Robe

10:44 am on Thursday, September 13, 2012

I was wondering what the RNC visitors thought who drove past the Confederate flag on I-75? This area has its share of hate-mongers and extremists of all types.

Jesus's teachings resonate with me because he did not pick up a hate sign or a sword. He walked the talk and loved others, even when they hated him. I honestly don't know the details of very many other religions, but it seems that all good, spiritual people will exhibit some of the fundamental truths of loving and caring for each other, regardless of our superficial differences of where we came from or our skin color. The Muslin friends I have do live good, spiritual lives IMHO.

In our country, freedom to worship was and is basic. Even if you believe another is following a "wrong" path, you can't use the government to force them to change. You have the right to say your peace, but also do that in a respectful way. Doing otherwise is counter to the founding fathers of the USA and dangerous for the future. Your freedoms are only as strong your neighbors. Peace!

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Daryl Dixon

2:04 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012

They probably thought "wow that flag is huge...must be a lot of history buffs around here...what's for lunch?"

Jeff Lukens

12:49 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012

The FBI says CAIR has terrorist ties. CAIR refuses to denounce Hamas. With the events in Egypt and Libya that have happened in the past 48 hours (on the anniversary of 9/11 no less), we should at least be wary about this situation. There are other peaceful Islamic groups that we can turn to accomplish the same function of introducing that culture to our high school students. The school board is closed to all of this because of their overriding sense of political correctness. Every time this issue is brought before them, they dig in deeper into their intransigence. All we can do now is to vote them out. This is one reason why I support Terry Kemple for Hillsborough School Board.

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George Gould

1:21 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012

Thank you for inserting a little levity into this discussion, Jeff! it was getting a tad too serious. "The FBI says CAIR has terrorist ties." ROTFLMAO That is hilarious.!

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Shawn Hicks

9:17 am on Friday, September 14, 2012

I can find no evidence that "the FBI says CAIR has terrorist ties." The FBI appears to have investigated them along with a number of other organizations after 9/11. The FBI does not currently list them as having ties to terrorists.

Wikipedia has a pretty deep file on them with a reasonable set of sources for further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_American%E2%80%93Islamic_Relations

Daryl Dixon

2:11 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012

Ssssssshhhhh nobody tell George……on August 7, 2007, a FBI agent testified at the Holy Land Foundation trial that CAIR was "listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine Committee", that it had received money from the Foundation, and that co-founders Awad and Omar Ahmad were "listed as individual members of the Brotherhood Palestine Committee in America."
CAIR, Council on American Islamic Relations…Islam is a religion, stop saying CAIR is not a religious organization to them (yes I said them) there is no speration, I personally believe it is a front group for the PLO and the Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah but that is just my opinion and I won’t cloud the issue at hand with facts. If they allow CAIR in the schools they should allow EVERY other religious organization, up to and including the church of the flying spaghetti monster, to speak.
Hey wasn’t Sami Al-Arian who pled guilty in 2006 to conspiracy to contribute services to or for the benefit of the Palestine Islamic Jihad, the Chairman of the Board of the Islamic Academy of Florida (IAF)…weren’t they a “hey we are Muslim do not fear us group” too?

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George Gould

2:46 pm on Thursday, September 13, 2012

Isn't the FBI part of the Federal Government? Are you telling me the Federal Government never lies to us?

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Shawn Hicks

9:25 am on Friday, September 14, 2012

WikiPedia again: "In 2007 the organization was named, along with 245 others, by U.S. Federal prosecutors in a list of unindicted co-conspirators and/or joint venturers in a Hamas funding case involving the Holy Land Foundation,[3] which caused the FBI to cease working with CAIR outside of criminal investigations due to its designation.[4][5][6] A federal appeals court removed the label for all parties and sealed the list on October 20, 2010, ruling the designation was the result of "simply an untested allegation of the Government, made in anticipation of a possible evidentiary dispute that never came to pass." [7][8][9][10] "

When I read people's opinions about groups like CAIR, I substitute Christian nouns and adjectives and consider if the same statement could be said about the current dominant religion in the USA. If so, I move on.

Jeff Lukens

3:09 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Wikipidia is not a reliable place to document stuff. Try this site from 2007:

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/08/cair_identified_by_the_fbi_as.php

In testimony Tuesday, FBI Agent Lara Burns reported before the jury in the Holy Land Foundation (HLF) trial that the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestine Committee, right alongside HLF, the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and the United Association for Studies and Research (UASR). Agent Burns further testified that CAIR received money from HLF - a claim that NihadAwad blatantly denied in a congressional testimony in September of 2003.
Burns also said that both Omar Ahmed and Nihad Awad, CAIR co-founders who today serve as CAIR’s chairman emeritus and executive director, respectively, were also listed as individual members the Brotherhood’s Palestine Committee in America.
Awad and Ahmed are further connected to the Palestine Committee based on their positions as president and public relations director of the IAP, a Hamas front group that was responsible for the dissemination of propaganda, and has since been closed down as aresult of a multi-million dollar civil judgment in a trial involving the murder of an American teenager by HAMAS terrorists.

It goes on.....

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Jeff Lukens

3:20 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

http://www.investigativeproject.org/3579/similar-to-fbi-cutoff-doj-urged-to-sever-ties

From the report:

At a May 10th House of Representatives meeting, the Department of Justice (DOJ) was urged to officially sever ties with the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), as reported by The Daily Caller.

Citing CAIR's designation as UNINDICTED CO-CONSPIRATOR in the Holy Land Foundation (HLF) trial, The Committee Report of Fiscal Year 2012 Commerce, Justice, Science Appropriates Bill urges Attorney General Eric Holder to wholly disengage with CAIR.

THINK ABOUT IT. DO WE WANT THESE GUYS IN OUR SCHOOLS TALKING TO OUR CHILDREN? SHOULDN’T THERE BE AT LEAST SOME CURIOSITY ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE UP TO? HILLSBOROUGH SCHOOLS SCREEN EVERY OUTSIDE GROUP THAT COMES INTO OUR SCHOOLS … EXCEPT CAIR? WHAT’S UP WITH THAT? COULD IT BE THAT THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO BOARD MEMBER’S CAMPAIGNS? WHO KNOWS, THEY JUST NEED TO STAY AWAY FROM OUR CHILDREN.

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George Gould

3:45 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Hmm... all those CAPS! I've heard that the use of CAPS indicates shouting on the internet. Is that so? If so, why are you shouting? You really need to get a grip, Jeff. I find hysterical shouting quite amusing but I'm not sure everyone does. Your mention of the possibility of CAIR contributing to School Board Members' campaigns leads me to believe that the real reason you have a hard-on for CAIR is not that they're some kind of existential threat to anyone or anything but that they didn't make a contribution to some group like... oh, say... the Alafia Republican Club. I'll bet that would change your attitude toward CAIR. It would, wouldn't it Jeff? Just between you and me.

Those guys from CAIR just haven't learned the American way... you have to pay off both sides to insure cooperation. That's the way prostitution works in America.

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JS

4:08 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Georgie Porgie pudding and pie,
Kissed the Cair group and made them cry,
When the Mullah came out to play,
Georgie Porgies head rolled away.

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George Gould

4:13 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Ah, JW. Early release from middle school today?. I love being able to count on you for your cutting edge analysis.

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Jeff Lukens

5:44 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Georgie, I just wanted to thank you for drawing so much attention to this article in the Patch. What would otherwise go largely unnoticed, by your inflaming the issue, we are now up to 34 comments and counting. The Patch is sure to notice this and spread this article to other locations around Hillsborough and the rest of Florida. The more people that hear about this shocking issue just prior to the election, the better. This is advertisement that only money from CAIR to school board members can buy. You are a patriot my friend! ;-)

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George Gould

6:08 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Georgie???? LMAO. No one other than mental midgets like JW have called me that since before I went to Vietnam in 1968.

OK then Jeffie. I'm glad to be of assistance. Obviously I don't really give a rat's ass either way whether CAIR or anybody else visits the schools. I'm just in it for the entertainment value. I enjoy watching you guys wrap yourselves around the axle trying to prove that CAIR is an existential threat to the United States and CAIR wildly insisting they're just misunderstood. As usual the truth is probably somewhere in between but, hell, this is politics. What does truth have to do with that?

Jeff Lukens

6:16 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Georgie, You said, "Obviously I don't really give a rat's ass either way whether CAIR or anybody else visits the schools." There is nothing else I can add to that. You said it all my friend! ;-)

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George Gould

6:28 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Then again Jeff, I'm not trying to appear serious. You are - or maybe you're not - you are supporting Terry Kemple and and that is one strange guy. I think I might rather leave a kid alone with a Catholic priest than with him.

So go at it, Jeff. You and Hassan Shibly have fun. Try to play nice with each other. Thanks for the entertainment.

Jeff Lukens

6:54 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

So Georgie, you take an issue that people are deeply concerned about and you get your kicks by mocking it. Gee, If you don't take what kids are exposed to in school seriously, you must not be a very nice guy. That surely is not kind or compassionate like you libs pretend to be. ;-)

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George Gould

7:13 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Couldn't hold yourself back, could you Jeff? People who are "deeply concerned" never can. Sooner or later they descend into name calling. I never said I was a very nice guy. And I don't pretend to be anything - I just see things as they are and I comment on them. I care not whether you're liberal or conservative or what you believe. I find people being "deeply concerned" amusing. If that offends you, so be it.

BTW - I am most definitely NOT a liberal. I find them to be just as ridiculous, if not more so, than I find conservatives.

Jeff Lukens

7:56 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Georgie, just wondering, do you have any kids of your own. Yes, I know, they are probably grown by now. Did you care (no pun) about them when they were in school? If so, why would mock those of us who are concerned about our kids? Did you "pretend" to be a parent?

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George Gould

8:18 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

As a matter of fact, Jeff. I have four children and yes, they are all grown. Of course, I cared about them. That is why I taught them to question everything and everyone, to include me. I wanted them to be exposed to the widest range of ideas so that they could detect bullshit and so that they could and would stand up to people who tried to pass off bullshit as truth. Kids can be very perceptive. They can see through pretense. When they get exposed to an idea which you find offensive, talk to them afterwards. If it's a matter of values which differ from what you've taught them, you'll find that far more often than not, they'll come down on your side. If they don't, then maybe you'll find that they were able to see something that you hadn't considered. Sometimes you'll find that it was you who was full of crap and you'll change. I guess what I'm saying is to have faith in your kids. If you've taught them well, they'll do OK.

Jeff Lukens

9:24 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Bravo George. That is the first time you have stated something worthy of this discussion. I like what you say.

To summarize the issue about CAIR:

CAIR was an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation (HLF) trial, where it was listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestine Committee. CAIR co-founders, Omar Ahmed and Nihad Awad, are connected to Islamic Association for Palestine IAP, a Hamas front group that was responsible for the dissemination of propaganda.

We must ask ourselves whether it is appropriate to have organizations like CAIR that condone murder speaking to students in our schools. Jihad can take many forms. There is armed conflict and then there in the peaceful deception of your enemy. We know that a tenant of the Quran is that it is okay to lie to your enemy. They consider the USA and our Bill of Rights their enemy. I believe CAIR is planting the seeds of “peaceful deception” to our youth by appearing to be benign and friendly when their intention is eventual domination. This is why I think CAIR must be banned from our schools.

If I taught a class under the Serve Program on the US Constitution and I have to undergo a background check to make sure I am not a criminal or pedophile or whatever. Why don’t they screen CAIR that same way? Could it be that they will be disqualified and that would be politically incorrect? That is why this issue is important.

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George Gould

10:48 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Actually, Jeff, everything I’ve stated in our exchanges has been worthy of this discussion. It’s just that you didn’t what to hear what I was saying and that’s OK.

As far as your summary of the issue with CAIR goes, it’s what I would expect you to say and I have no doubt you believe every word of it. I would imagine Hassan Shibly’s summary of the issue would be somewhat at odds with yours and that he would likewise believe every word of his summary. Where lies the truth? As I said before, it most likely falls somewhere between your competing versions. Life just usually works that way.

So how am I to decide between you two? You’re both native-born American citizens from the rust belt as am I. You’re both educated as am I. You’re both men of faith – here you both lose me – I am an agnostic.

So how do I decide? I let you guys fight it out while I sit back with a beer and some popcorn and enjoy the entertainment. May the best bullshit win!

Frank Wuco

10:57 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

You just LOVE to argue, don't you George? The Village Sourpuss... the guy who always sits in the back of the town hall meetings and complains about "a pot hole here... the need for a stop sign there." Then, when the pothole is filled, you argue that the engineers were morons for using asphalt instead of concrete, or some such thing. I have yet to see you make a point, but man do you love to argue, don't you? I've even seen you argue about someone using all caps to spell your name. I would agree with you, but you'd probably argue about that. You love this, don't you George. There's an expression in psychology for your style of communication; for how "all over the place" your logic train is. It's called "word salad." No need to respond, George. Quite frankly, you're boring.

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George Gould

11:29 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Lighten up, Francis.

I'm not the one peddling the bullshit. You are. Of course, I have no vested interest in "proving" to the world that those powerful Muslims are an existential threat to the United States. If they're not, that might put a real crimp in the consulting business. Give me a break.

Jeff Lukens

11:14 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Don't confuse faith and a political organization. CAIR is not so much about the belief in Islam as it is about achieving political goals. CAIR is a political organization.

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George Gould

11:30 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Jeff, all religious organizations are political organizations. Religion is politics by other means.

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George Gould

6:41 pm on Monday, September 17, 2012

Thank you Shannon but please don't say that. I wouldn't want to live in any place that let me rule.

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